Light After Life

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Light After Life

Exploring the mysteries of our existence: Life, Death and Beyond. Afterlife, Mediumship, Spiritualism ~ Death is not the end; I am but waiting for you for an interval ...

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Message to all: Stay safe, stay well, stay at home - and stay in touch.
The Video of the Week now showing on our Portal page is: 'Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet'

New Thinking Allowed

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New Thinking Allowed Empty New Thinking Allowed

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 05 Oct 2019, 18:13

Parapsychology in Russia with Loyd Auerbach
Loyd Auerbach, MS, received his masters' degree in parapsychology from John F. Kennedy University. He is author of Mind Over Matter; ESP, Hauntings, and Poltergeists: A Parapsychologist's Handbook; Reincarnation, Channeling, and Possession; Psychic Dreaming; A Paranormal Casebook; and Ghost Hunting: How to Investigate the Paranormal. He is co-author (with Ed May, Joseph McMoneagle, and Victor Rubel) of ESP Wars: East and West. He is the Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations. He also serves on the Board of Directors of the Rhine Research Center.

Here he points out that, during the Soviet era, parapsychological research was conducted in some forty different institutes -- greatly exceeding the activity in the United States. The Soviet military program entailed more than 100 remote viewers. Remote viewers were also actively used by law enforcement agencies and by the KGB. High profile psychics were also employed to shield prominent figures, such as premier Gorbachev, from enemy psychic attack. Since the fall of the USSR, this activity has been greatly reduced.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 05 Oct 2019, 20:35

Callum Cooper, PhD, is a lecturer in psychology at the University of Northampton in the United Kingdom. He is author of Telephone Calls From the Dead. He is coeditor, with Steven Parsons, of Paracoustics: Sound and the Paranormal. And, he is coauthor (with Alex Tanous) of Conversations With Ghosts. His website is www.callumecooper.com.

Here he describes how he is continuing the research initiated by D. Scott Rogo and Raymond Bayliss regarding individuals who receive ostensible telephone calls from the departed. He reveals many of the details required for thorough investigation of these cases. He also discusses a variety of alternative explanations. He enumerates several different types of phone calls that are in the database of about 100 such cases.

Phone Calls From The Dead with Callum Cooper



Here Callum Cooper describes the remarkable career of Alex Tanous (1926 - 1990) who worked for twenty years as a research subject and an investigator with the American Society for Psychical Research. Tanous was extensively and successfully tested for his out-of-body abilities. He was also known for documented instances of bilocation. He was particularly interested in investigating apparition and poltergeist cases. He developed a therapeutic model for causing the disturbing psychokinetic symptoms of such cases to abate.

Conversations With Ghosts with Callum Cooper

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sun 06 Oct 2019, 17:46

Evidentiality of Spiritualist Mediumship with Stephen E. Braude

Stephen Braude, PhD, served as chairman of the philosophy department at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. He has also served as president of the Parapsychological Association. He is author of Crimes of Reason, The Gold Leaf Lady, Immortal Remains, The Limits of Influence, First Person Plural, and ESP and Psychokinesis. He is the recent recipient of the prestigious Myers Memorial Medal awarded by the Society for Psychical Research for outstanding contributions.

Here he suggests that a useful criterion in distinguishing between evidence for post-mortem survival as opposed to living agent psi is the motive for the mediumistic communication. If the communication seems to be of greater benefit to the deceased, this would count in favor of the survival hypothesis. For this reason, “drop in” cases are of particular significance. Braude describes one such case, from Iceland, in detail. Further discussion focuses on the accuracy of information provided by ostensible spirit communicators. Braude also argues that, in order to properly evaluate mediums, we need to know more about the nature of unusual human talent.




In this video, brief reference is given to a 'famous case' concering a chess game between a well-known chess champion (living) and a supposed world-class chess champion (deceased) whose participation was manifested through automatic writing mediumship.  Intrigued to know more about this, I looked it up and found this very interesting account listed in the Psi Encyclopedia:
Maroczy Chess
In 1985, a chess game was arranged between Russian grandmaster Viktor Korchnoi and a deceased grandmaster, the Hungarian Geza Maroczy, making his moves via a medium who specialized in automatic writing.
Read more: https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/articles/maroczy-chess  
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Physical Mediumship

Post by Candlelight.kk on Mon 07 Oct 2019, 14:28

More from Stephen E. Braude.  This time on Macro-Psychokinesis

This interview (from September 2015) is in three parts:

Part 1 - Physical Mediumship
Here he discusses large-scale psychokinetic phenomena, typically observed during séances in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These phenomena included table rapping, table levitation, human levitation, apports and materializations. Of particular interest is the case of Daniel Dunglas Home, perhaps the greatest spiritualist medium known in history, who produced such phenomena consistently for a period of twenty-five years. Another well-attested case of human levitation is that of the Catholic saint, Joseph of Cupertino. Braude takes issue with those who believe that the reports of such phenomena are untrustworthy.
I remember being fascinated when learning about the levitation of Joseph of Cupertino, at school (Catholic convent school back in Ireland))




Part 2 - Apparitions
Here he notes that apparitions were studied extensively by the British Society for Psychical Research in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Basically, there are two categories of apparitions: those of the living and those of the deceased. Thousands of such cases have been reported and researched. The most common of these is known as the “crisis apparition” and often occurs in relationship to a death or accident. Often apparitions are thought of as a mental phenomenon, probably produced by telepathy. Sometimes they are pure psychological projections or are produced by hypnosis. However, Braude maintains that collective apparitions cannot readily be explained this way. He argues that apparitions that are seen by many people simultaneously may be physical phenomena produced by psychokinesis.




Part 3 - Philosophical Reflections
Here he points out that psychokinesis is something of a taboo within a taboo – as even parapsychologists have been reluctant to research or discuss the phenomenon, particularly when it occurs on a large-scale. He suggests that so-called primitive cultures may have a better understanding of psychokinesis than in modern societies. He also points out that the experimental method has severe limitations when it comes to studying psychokinesis because it is not possible to isolate the source of psychokinetic manifestations. He recommends studying psychokinesis in natural settings so that it can be better understood in social contexts. He also recommends psychodynamic analysis of psychokinetic manifestations.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Messages from the Afterlife with Jonathan Beecher

Post by Candlelight.kk on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 13:45

Jonathan Beecher is the founder of White Crow Books. He is editor of the anthology, In Times of War: Messages of Wisdom from Soldiers in the Afterlife.

Here describes his own transformation that occurred in the year 2000 when he suffered from an accident while sleep walking. After six weeks of recovery, he found that he was a different person. A series of spiritualistic experiences led him to a quest for knowledge. He shows how his own experiences led him to accept the claims of Air Marshall Lord Dowding, commander of the Royal Air Force during WWII's Battle of Britain. Dowding became a devoted spiritualist and organized a rescue circle. A similar circle had been organized earlier by the noted psychiatrist, Dr. Carl Wickland. In these circles, and several others, detailed cases were recorded involving communications from deceased individuals.

Messages from the Afterlife with Jonathan Beecher
(Recorded on April 13, 2019)

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New Thinking Allowed Empty The Cross Correspondences (with Russel Targ)

Post by Candlelight.kk on Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:19

The Cross-Correspondences with Russell Targ



Full video conversation with Russell Targ (from which the above video is an excerpt):
Historical Highlights of Parapsychology With Russell Targ
Russell Targ, a laser physicist, cofounded the remote viewing research program at SRI International. He is coauthor Mind Reach, The Mind Race, Miracles of Mind, The Heart of the Mind, and The End of Suffering. He is author of Limitless Mind and The Reality of ESP: A Physicist's Proof of Psychic Abilities. He is also coeditor of the anthology, Mind At Large.

Here he he describes a series of classic books in the fields of psychical research and parapsychology that he was responsible for bringing back into print. They include Human Personality and It's Survival of Bodily Death by F. W. H. Myers; The Future and Beyond by H. F. Saltmarsh; Experiments in Mental Suggestion by L. L. Vasiliev: Mental Radio by Upton Sinclair: Mind to Mind by Rene Warcollier: and Dream Telepathy by Ullman, Krippner, & Vaughan. One brand new title in the series was Distant Mental Influence by William Braud.


Related links:



https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t1088-myers-frederic-william-henry?highlight=myers#6626
•   http://www.survivalafterdeath.info/articles/rogo/crosscorrespondences.htm
•   https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t1143-sidgwick-henry?highlight=myers#6799
•   https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t1116-richet-prof-charles-robert?highlight=myers#6656
https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t961-the-cross-correspondences?highlight=myers#6495
•   https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t743-tell-my-mother-i-m-not-dead-a-case-study-in-mediumship-research?highlight=myers#5571
https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t705-psi-encylopedia-launched-september-2016?highlight=myers#5345
•   https://lightafterlife.forumotion.com/t705-psi-encylopedia-launched-september-2016?highlight=myers#5343
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Posts : 3068
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet (with Stephan A. Schwartz)

Post by Candlelight.kk on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 18:19

Edgar Cayce, The Sleeping Prophet


Stephan A. Schwartz is a Distinguished Consulting Faculty of Saybrook University. He is the columnist for the journal Explore, and editor of the daily web publication Schwartzreport.net in both of which he covers trends that are affecting the future. His other academic and research appointments include: Senior Fellow for Brain, Mind and Healing of the Samueli Institute; founder and Research Director of the Mobius laboratory. Government appointments include Special Assistant for Research and Analysis to the Chief of Naval Operations. Schwartz was the principal researcher studying the use of Remote Viewing in archaeology. Using Remote Viewing he discovered Cleopatra's Palace, Marc Antony's Timonium, ruins of the Lighthouse of Pharos, and sunken ships along the California coast, and in the Bahamas. He is the author of more than 130 technical reports and papers. He has written The Secret Vaults of Time, The Alexandria Project, Mind Rover, Opening to the Infinite, and The 8 Laws of Change.

Here he describes the uncanny experiences that drew him to explore the realm of the paranormal, and Edgar Cayce in particular. He determined that there were many instances in which Cayce was able to access information that could not have been known through normal means  – particularly with reference to the Essenes, about whom little was known prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. As a result, he spent five years immersing himself in the Cayce readings and the parapsychology literature. This was essential preparation for his later career as a researcher in parapsychology, archeology, healing, and anthropology.
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by Sparrow on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 03:26

Thank you for this.
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Investigating Mediums with Julie Beischel

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 19:09



Julie Beischel, PhD, is the co-founder and Director of Research at the Windbridge Research Center, a nonprofit dedicated to performing rigorous scientific research and creating educational materials on the topics of dying, death, and what comes next. She received her doctorate in Pharmacology and Toxicology with a minor in Microbiology and Immunology. She is author of Investigating Mediums. Her website is http://www.windbridge.org/ .

Here she describes her research approach, working with mediums whom she treats as partners in her investigations. She discusses her quintuple-blind protocols that have provided clear evidence that mediums are able to provide information regarding deceased persons about whom they had no previous knowledge. She also refers to many interpersonal factors involved in studying mediums. Additionally she discusses physiological factors.
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Houdini and the Witch of Lime Street with David Jaher

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 23 Nov 2019, 11:22

David Jaher is author of The Witch of Lime Street: Seance, Seduction, and Houdini in the Spirit World.

Here he describes an episode in American history in which Scientific American magazine held a contest that pitted the great escape artist, Harry Houdini, against the provocative Spiritualist medium and Boston socialite, Margery Crandon. These two individuals were among the most famous in the western world during the 1920s. A number of psychical researchers were involved in the investigation of Mrs. Crandon's mediumship. This case, in part, inspired J. B. Rhine to develop scientific parapsychology in a new direction.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Alfred Russel Wallace and the Spirit World with Michael Cremo

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sun 08 Dec 2019, 14:34

Michael Cremo is coauthor, with Richard Thompson, of Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race. He is also author of Human Devolution: A Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory.

Here he explains how Alfred Russel Wallace came to be acknowledged as the co-discover, along with Charles Darwin, of the theory of evolution by natural selection. Wallace's scientific interest eventually turned toward spiritualism -- where he reported witnessing many unusual phenomena under controlled conditions. His colleagues included Sir William Crookes, President of the Royal Society, and William James, the founder of American psychology. Cremo explains his understanding of Wallace's work as it pertains to human evolution.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Frederic Myers & Psychical Research with Terence Palmer

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 01:22

Frederic Myers & Psychical Research with Terence Palmer
Terence Palmer, PhD, is author of The Science of Spirit Possession. He is a member of the Society for Psychical Research as well as the Scientific and Medical Network. He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine.

Here he focuses on the research, largely in the nineteenth century, of the Society for Psychical Research. Frederic Myers great work, Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death, was published in 1903 – two years after his death. In 2003, the British Psychological Association celebrated the 100th anniversary of its publication. Among other interests, Myers focused on the question of telepathic hypnotic induction. He also developed a theoretical model in which survival after death was shown to be part of a larger spectrum of unusual experiences. Myers appears to have continued his research into human survival after his own demise. His communications to mediums on three different continents initiated the famous “cross-correspondence” series of communications that stand among the best evidence for survival of human personality.





The Cross Correspondences
From 1901 to 1932, three mediums to begin with, Mrs Piper in Boston USA,  Mrs Verrall in England, and Mrs Holland (pseudonym of Mrs Fleming, a sister of Rudyard Kipling who lived in India) received more than three thousand messages from the deceased Frederic Myers, Edmund Gurney, and Henry Sidgwick, for over thirty years, with mediums eventually numbering more than a dozen.
Read more: The Cross Correspondences
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New Thinking Allowed Empty A Soul's Journey After Suicide - with Joseph Gallenberger

Post by Candlelight.kk on Fri 10 Jan 2020, 18:43

A Soul's Journey After Suicide
with Joseph Gallenberger

Joseph Gallenberger, PhD, is a clinical psychologist. He is author of Inner Vegas: Creating Abundance, Miracles, and Health and Liquid Luck: The Good Fortune Handbook. His most recent book is Heaven is for Healing: A Soul's Journey After Suicide. He is a senior trainer with the Monroe Institute near Charlottesville, Virginia.

Here he describes insights he gained, concerning the afterlife, during the past quarter-century since his brother's suicide. These insights were derived from his work with the Monroe Institute Gateway program, from his explorations involving the channeler Pam Hogan, and from a variety of experiences he interprets as direct contact. He maintains that opportunities for personal and spiritual growth exist for all in the afterlife.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by mac on Fri 10 Jan 2020, 19:24

Saved for watching later. Suicide and its after effects are an evergreen topic for discussion, mostly without widely-accepted guidance from teachers and guides.
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Ernesto Bozzano and Spirit Survival - with Carlos Alvarado

Post by Candlelight.kk on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 14:11

Ernesto Bozzano and Spirit Survival
with Carlos Alvarado

Carlos S. Alvarado, PhD, is a Research Fellow at the Parapsychology Foundation, and Adjunct Research Faculty at Sofia University. He is on the editorial boards of the Journal of Near-Death Studies and the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, and is the Book Review Editor of the Journal of Parapsychology, and an Associate Editor of the Journal of Scientific Exploration. Alvarado is also the recipient of the 2010 Parapsychological Association’s Outstanding Contribution Award, the Parapsychological Association 2017 Outstanding Career Award. He is author of the book, Charles Richet: A Nobel Prize Winning Scientist's Explorations of Psychic Phenomena.

Here he shares his interest and passion for the work of the Italian scholar, Ernesto Bozzano, who was a foremost proponent of the spirit survival hypothesis. He touches on many of Bozzano's interests including bilocation, transcendental music, hauntings, telekinesis, mediumship, apparitions, and deathbed phenomena. While Bozzano accepted and wrote about living agent psi, he argued strenuously that this could not account for the many phenomena that were documented in the literature of spiritualism, mesmerism, and psychical research.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by mac on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 15:06

I've just watched/listened to the interview with Joe Gallenberger. What a lovely guy and an easy communicator!

It's a very interesting and illuminating personal experience that might help those bereaved through suicide to understand that their loved one isn't gone for good, isn't lost and isn't being punished. Smile

thanks, kk

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Grief's Dark Cocoon - with Joseph Gallenberger

Post by Candlelight.kk on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 16:54

mac wrote:I've just watched/listened to the interview with Joe Gallenberger.  What a lovely guy and an easy communicator!  

It's a very interesting and illuminating personal experience that might help those bereaved through suicide to understand that their loved one isn't gone for good, isn't lost and isn't being punished.    Smile

thanks, kk

New Thinking Allowed 362326625

Interesting, too, that it was his brother, Pete, not all that long before his passing, that had introduced Joe to the medium / ("channeler" as he called her), Pam Hogan, who was instrumental in bringing about the after-death communication with his deceased brother, consequently helping him (and others) through the grief process, and with that also a lot more understanding of what happens after we die - not just through suicide, but colouring in the larger picture for all of us.  
It would seem to me that this was no 'coincidence', but something that was very much 'meant', and possibly deliberately 'engineered' from spirit, with foresight knowledge of what was soon to come.

In this interview, which was done about a month before the one posted above - Joe Gallenberger is speaking about his own grief and personal journey following the suicide of his older brother.

He points out that his extensive background in both psychological and spiritual work provided surprisingly little help in coping with the pain occasioned by his loss. The grieving process required many years. However, the metaphor of a cocoon is apt insofar as grief and death can, ultimately, lead to transformative openings.

Grief's Dark Cocoon
with Joseph Gallenberger

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by mac on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 18:12

Thanks for the next link, kk - I'll take a look later.

I agree with your thoughts about his late brother's 'planning' for his apparently untimely departure from this world.  Over the past few years I've become accepting of the likelihood of the orchestration of events in our dimension that earlier I would not have entertained.  

In passing I should also add I recently asked the discarnate communicator over in 'the other place' about how easy it is for discarnates to interfere with our electronic devices and the acceptability of such interference. (re your missing attachment files)

 From the reply it appears it's not that hard for our friends unseen (at least some of them) to manipulate our devices but it's considered 'bad form' to do it to bring about negative outcomes.  My thoughts about that, though, are that 'bad lads' in the etheric are probably as unconcerned by what's thought of their behaviour as bad lads are in this dimension are!

It's interesting how Joe's professional experience did little to help him with the grief he experienced.  My view for some time has been that personal experience of some sort is often needed before the notion of survival et al begins to mean something.

Even then some individuals are resistant to accepting the message unless they have received some kind of persuasive evidence and I can understand why they feel that way.  

One regular problem is that the persuasion hoped for may be hard to find, especially so here in the US where evidential mediums are spread really thin across this large continent. Increasingly I'm hearing about folk wanting to achieve communication directly, without any involvement of a 'go-between' medium. Maybe the shape of things to come????
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Re: New Thinking Allowed

Post by mac on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 03:02

thanks for that second video link, kk - I found it gently illuminating, both guys clearly experienced and highly skilled. It sets the scene not just concerning suicide but about the grief process and learning about survival. I think those two videos could be helpful to anyone mourning and wondering what happens next....

I hope you'll not mind my posting the links in 'the other place' with - of course - attribution to yourself and a link to LAL?
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New Thinking Allowed Empty Dreams and Psychic Dreams - with Loyd Auerbach

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 01 Feb 2020, 12:33

Dreams and Psychic Dreams
with Loyd Auerbach

Loyd Auerbach, MS , received his masters' degree in parapsychology from John F. Kennedy University. He is author of Mind Over Matter; ESP, Hauntings, and Poltergeists: A Parapsychologist's Handbook; Reincarnation, Channeling, and Possession; Psychic Dreaming; A Paranormal Casebook; and Ghost Hunting: How to Investigate the Paranormal. He is co-author (with Ed May, Joseph McMoneagle, and Victor Rubel) of ESP Wars: East and West. He is the Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations. He also serves on the Board of Directors of the Rhine Research Center.

Here he points out that disagreement still exists among researchers as to whether or not dreams are meaningful. Psychic dreams typically feel different than other dreams. They are frequently described as "more real than real". Nuances concerning precognitive dreams are presented. Such dreams can be life-changing -- usually, but not always, in positive ways. The discussion focuses on the relationship between dream states, hypnotic states, and meditative states -- leading to questions about the nature of consciousness itself.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty The Akashic Field with Mary Baxter

Post by Candlelight.kk on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 12:07

The Akashic Field
with Mary Baxter

Mary Baxter, PhD, is an intuitive consultant. She is author of Life Journeys of 21st Century Spiritual Healers and also Getting Started With Your Pendulum. Her website is https://theinnerknowing.com/ .

Here she describes how she first learned about the akashic records when she sought a spiritual clearing at a time in her life when she was faced with multiple frightening problems. As a result of the positive outcome from that experience she began to study the technique of accessing the akashic field. This involved the use of the pendulum as well as working with spiritual guides. She describes many nuances and details associated with this work.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Synchronicity and Serendipity with Bernard D. Beitman

Post by Candlelight.kk on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 12:21

Synchronicity and Serendipity
with Bernard D. Beitman

Bernard D. Beitman, MD , is former chair of the psychiatry department at the University of Missouri, Columbia. He is author of Connecting with Coincidence: The New Science of Using Synchronicity and Serendipity in Your Life.

Here he points out that parapsychological events involving ostensible psychokinesis, telepathy, and precognition can also be thought of in terms of coincidence or synchronicity. Serendipity, however, need not involve psychic talents at all. He notes that certain normal psychological functions enable people to notice and act upon useful coincidences when they occur. He also maintains that some coincidences and synchronicities can be harmful and even deadly.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Deathbed Visions - with Stafford Betty

Post by Candlelight.kk on Sat 07 Mar 2020, 13:04

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Deathbed Visions
with Stafford Betty

Stafford Betty, PhD , is professor of religious studies at California State University at Bakersfield. He is author of Heaven and Hell Unveiled, The Afterlife Unveiled, and When Did You Ever Become Less by Dying?

Here he describes two different types of deathbed visions and provides vivid examples of each. He notes that such visions have evidential value when the dying person describes a relative waiting for them (presumably in the afterlife) who was not known to be deceased. He also points out that this is one of about a dozen different lines of evidence pointing toward human survival of consciousness after death.

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New Thinking Allowed Empty Phenomena of High Strangeness - with Barry Taff

Post by Candlelight.kk on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 15:56

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Phenomena of High Strangeness
with Barry Taff


Barry E. Taff holds a doctorate in psychophysiology with a minor in biomedical engineering. He worked at UCLA's former parapsychology laboratory from 1969 through 1978. He also was investigated as a psychic subject, the results of which were published in Behavioral Neuropsychiatry. He is author of Aliens Above, Ghosts Below: Explorations of the Unknown. His website is www.BarryTaff.net.

Here he shares some personal experiences with apports, ostensible disembodied entities, and bilocation. Such phenomena are so rare and apparently impossible that most individuals simply deny them outright, even when witnessed. Yet they are consistent with the personal accounts of several guests on the New Thinking Allowed channel.



    Current date/time is Wed 15 Jul 2020, 19:17